| Official Luthiers Forum! http://www-.luthiersforum.com/forum/ |
|
| A sad tonewood story http://www-.luthiersforum.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=10102&t=4089 |
Page 1 of 2 |
| Author: | Bobc [ Tue Dec 13, 2005 9:08 am ] |
| Post subject: | |
Below is an e-mail from a customer in Germany. I feel pretty bad about the whole ordeal. Anyone else have somthing similar happen? Hi Bob! Sorry for my silence, my grandma has died and I attended the funeral in another part of Germany, but now I?m back. Your shippment has safely arrived – it is the quickest shippment I ever received from the US ! Thank you so much, I will leave a ultimative positive feedback on eBay, be sure! If you are relaxed and have some time I tell you the story I went through today at the German customs … Your – unexpected quick – posting arrived at the day I left for the funeral, so I just got a message which said that I have to go to the customs personally to collect the item and I have to provide a written and ofiicallly aproved bill in German language … (??!!!). After my return today I found this message and went directly to the customoffice, it?s just 15 min. from my place. After waiting for about half an hour my name was called out and I had to open your sending. I had to explain what kind of wood it is and so I did honestly: 2 bookmatched halves of spruce and one set of boockmatched curly mahogany, consisting of two sides and two backs. Mahogany seems to be a problem, they wanted to know the latin name and I told them that it is probably swietenia macrophylla. After 20 more minutes they found out, that importing this kind of mahogany to Germany can be a problem, spruce is no problem. According to their rules they have to check it out. Then the following happened: they confiscicated the two mahogany sides and gave me back the spruce top *and* the two mahogany backs. Then they charged the duty for the spruce top and the whole shipping and billed me ca. 12 US$ (and not for the backs…). So I gave them the 12 US$ and went later of with the spruce top and the mohogany backs … (!?????), Next they will send the confiscicated sides to a officially accepted organization (probably a universaty) to ask for an expert opinion. Due to the fact that this is an official act they will pay for all expenses. Last year this type of mahogany was set on the CITES list, so they want to check if this wood is cut pre 2004 and need an expert opinion! With today?s technology they can determine the exact date – but it?s a heavy job and quite expensive. If they find out that these sides are cut pre 2004 I will get them back. But they will pay for the analysis. I asked the lady what will happen if occures that I am *not* allowed to receive such an item here in Germany due to actual restrictions. The answer: nothing to you and me apart from the fact that the wood will stay to be confiscicated and I will not get it back. It will be destroyed or given to a luthier school for education etc. etc. Sending from the US is not prohibitted, but receiving in Germany is not allowed without a certificate. Then she explained me a way to get avoid the expert?s opinion, to make it short: that would mean about a week of work for you in the US to get an export-certificate and another week for me in Germany (fulltime, at minimum) to get an import-certificate. To make it shorter: forget it. To make it even shorter: this was the moment when I resigned and payed this 12 US$, got the top and the mahogany backs (sic !!!), left the mohogany sides and this strange custom-joint. So I?m sitting here with one top of spruce (2/2) and one great back (2/2) of curly mahogany and awaiting the experts opinion… That?s the way Germany customs can go. Nothing can happen to you or me, in the worst case a group of german woodworkers get these pieces of wood from the customs for learning. The risk is on my side, you have done a premium job and have your money, which is not in discussion! |
|
| Author: | John How [ Tue Dec 13, 2005 9:19 am ] |
| Post subject: | |
Wow, Glad shipments to cool don't go thru customs |
|
| Author: | BlueSpirit [ Tue Dec 13, 2005 9:54 am ] |
| Post subject: | |
Man that is a sad state of affairs, Bob. I really feel for the guy. But what can he do? Nothing. He's warring with the government and that is usually a losing battle. I'd feel sad too. But I doubt if there is anything you can do. |
|
| Author: | Skip Beach [ Tue Dec 13, 2005 10:04 am ] |
| Post subject: | |
Bob, If you end up sending him another set of Mahogany sides, just label them as Spruce or maybe Sapelle. Make the labeling look official enough & it might actually work in this case. Seriously, I feel for the guy. He just wants to build a nice guitar and mindless beaurecrats are just screwing him over. 
Skip |
|
| Author: | Shane Neifer [ Tue Dec 13, 2005 10:07 am ] |
| Post subject: | |
Just help him out if you know for sure the species name and with the any information on origin and time location of harvest and forward for his use with customs. It seems almost too late though. Good Luck Bob Shane |
|
| Author: | ctholden [ Tue Dec 13, 2005 10:10 am ] |
| Post subject: | |
If I read it correctly, that is realy odd that they kept the sides and gave him the backs, considering the backs were Mahogany as well. That is a sad state of affairs, getting back from a funeral and having part of your order confiscated. |
|
| Author: | Bobc [ Tue Dec 13, 2005 10:33 am ] |
| Post subject: | |
Well it does seem strange seeing that the sides and the the backs look the same. I wish I knew when it was harvested but realistically unless I was there or cut the tree myself how would one ever know. A log can go thu many hands before you buy the final boards. This is his reply after I told him how sorry I was to hear this. I sent a second e-mail offering another set of sides for free and label them african mahogany but havn't heard back yet. Hi Bob, thank you for you warm words. Regarding the wood there is nothing that should shock you - the CITES-thing is individual to each country, you can?t do anything, what is leagal within your country could be illeagal on the other (my) side, without any problem to the sender. Now they check with a moneyconsuming system the age of the mahogany-sides. That?s what they do. If this wood is cut pre 2004 (ca.) it should be due to CITES no problem. Do you remember when you bought this set? If you are got it before 2004 it must be proofed by the official test that it ist pre 2004 and so there?s no problem and I will get it back. Otherwise the sides are gone on my risk. The reason I got back the mohogany backs back is that they don?t know anything about wood and just thought, that the mahogany backs are a part of the top (!!!) … I realized and didn?t mentioned this and just took the top(s) and the back(s). If that?s the way the officional custons think to handle it I just took it. They didn?t have any clue … You can?t help, unfortunatly: the situation for the German importer is strange and as following: You are allowed to export. So no problem. I maybe have a problem to import (pre 2004) mahogany -> they want to check the sides -> if pre cut 2004 no problem; if cut after 2004 -> problem, but not for you and me: the item will be just stay confiscicated and could be given to schools. Don?t worry and all the best, Martin PS: in the worst case I?m “just” missing the sides, but the backs are topnotch … I see it positively. THX again! |
|
| Author: | RussellR [ Tue Dec 13, 2005 10:35 am ] |
| Post subject: | |
HI Bob Theoretically the customs rules for all EU countries should be the same, however each country excercises these rule is slightly different ways, my experience of german customs is they are pretty meticulous about there work, I used to work in the UK for a German Company and spent a lot of time there. However the other thing that the German Customs are, is fair, they will do what they said they are going to do, and if the wood is not a problem they will return it. As for sending again, I think you will find they will stop it again, your sending address will have been flagged and they will check any packages coming from it in the next month or so. Don't declare it as something it is not, that could well back fire with immediate seisure. Bob I'd be inclined to comment back to the guy that you are sorry to hear about this, but could he keep you up to date with progress. There is no doubt the European Customs are tightening, this I think is a reaction to some of the problems in Spain. My last shipment from the US was opened for investigation. Hope this helps Russell |
|
| Author: | RussellR [ Tue Dec 13, 2005 10:39 am ] |
| Post subject: | |
Sorry Bob I hadn't read your second post before I posted this. I don't understand why they wouldn't sieze the backs either. |
|
| Author: | Bobc [ Tue Dec 13, 2005 10:43 am ] |
| Post subject: | |
Russell I agree with you. Sending him another set would just cause more problems and maybe prevent me from selling him other woods. Not a good idea. |
|
| Author: | RussellR [ Tue Dec 13, 2005 10:56 am ] |
| Post subject: | |
Hi Bob I just check and swietenia macrophylla is indeed on the CITES List. Russell |
|
| Author: | sfbrown [ Tue Dec 13, 2005 11:57 am ] |
| Post subject: | |
Maybe I'm suggesting the obvious but taking the German gentleman's lead, why don't you send another set of sides but labeled as a NON-sites mahogany. Let's face it, the powers that be won't know the difference. Also, I think that Germany, due to recent problems with the US politically may be targetting, under orders, any US imports. Sort of "working to the letter." I wouldn't be a bit surprised if this person's story is not all that unusual. Just a couple of thoughts, Steve Brown |
|
| Author: | RussellR [ Tue Dec 13, 2005 12:02 pm ] |
| Post subject: | |
Steve The problem is for a month or so Bobs shipments will probably be flagged, they don't just take whats on the label as gospel. Bob is a very decent guy, but at the end of the day the duty of care is on the importer, it is up to them to know what they can and can't bring in. |
|
| Author: | Brock Poling [ Tue Dec 13, 2005 12:20 pm ] |
| Post subject: | |
What I am wondering is what are they going to do to the sides to "test" them... even if he gets them back, is the test destructive? It would suck to get them back and they would be perforated with a bunch of holes. |
|
| Author: | tl507362 [ Tue Dec 13, 2005 12:54 pm ] |
| Post subject: | |
Bob, Sorry to hear about this. As a supplier it is not fun when the customer is having problems with an order. But I have a theory about what really happened... The customs agent builds guitars and was working on a curly mahogany guitar. He just happened to be bending a set of sides that day, and broke one of them. In his obsessive search for a replacement set, he conviscated poor Martin's sides. Just so happens it was an exact match in color...just kidding. 
I would send him another set for free and label it as some other wood. Good luck! Tracy |
|
| Author: | Terry Stowell [ Tue Dec 13, 2005 2:10 pm ] |
| Post subject: | |
German luthiers often moonlight as Customs agents. I'm not kidding 
|
|
| Author: | Mattia Valente [ Tue Dec 13, 2005 9:04 pm ] |
| Post subject: | |
Whoa. Bizarre, that. And slightly frightening. S. Macrophylla's been in CITES appendix 2 since November 2003, if I'm reading it correctly (CITES website). I've imported Cuban from Ed Dicks without problems before. |
|
| Author: | Colin S [ Tue Dec 13, 2005 9:13 pm ] |
| Post subject: | |
I tend to buy most of my wood from UK suppliers (I like to fondle it first (It's not illegal!). But, last week I got a package from LMI of Madagascan Rosewood, fingerboards blanks, bridge blanks, bindings etc. Not only did customs not open it but it was delivered by the Fed Ex guy directly to me and the Customs people never even asked for the $75 or so import duty and Value Added Tax that was due. Guess I prefer UK customs to German. By the way, the Mad Rose fingerboards look fabulous, a real BRW substitute, now that Russell has all the good BRW ones in the UK .
Colin |
|
| Author: | sfbrown [ Tue Dec 13, 2005 9:53 pm ] |
| Post subject: | |
[QUOTE=RussellR] Steve The problem is for a month or so Bobs shipments will probably be flagged, they don't just take whats on the label as gospel. Bob is a very decent guy, but at the end of the day the duty of care is on the importer, it is up to them to know what they can and can't bring in.[/QUOTE] I understand that. I didn't make clear that he should do that after this period. I agree with you. With import regulations being as different as they are country to country it behooves the buyer/importer to know them. One thought: WAS the mahogany he bought the species he said? Regards, Steve |
|
| Author: | sfbrown [ Tue Dec 13, 2005 9:56 pm ] |
| Post subject: | |
[QUOTE=Brock Poling] What I am wondering is what are they going to do to the sides to "test" them... even if he gets them back, is the test destructive? It would suck to get them back and they would be perforated with a bunch of holes. [/QUOTE] Brock, I was wondering if they really can tell the difference in 1-year of age as they claim? 1-year?? Steve Brown |
|
| Author: | RussellR [ Tue Dec 13, 2005 10:02 pm ] |
| Post subject: | |
HI Colin With Fedex it is different, they have paid the duty for you, they will send you an invoice in a week or two. |
|
| Author: | Mattia Valente [ Wed Dec 14, 2005 2:29 am ] |
| Post subject: | |
[QUOTE=Colin S] I tend to buy most of my wood from UK suppliers (I like to fondle it first (It's not illegal!). But, last week I got a package from LMI of Madagascan Rosewood, fingerboards blanks, bridge blanks, bindings etc. Not only did customs not open it but it was delivered by the Fed Ex guy directly to me and the Customs people never even asked for the $75 or so import duty and Value Added Tax that was due. Guess I prefer UK customs to German. By the way, the Mad Rose fingerboards look fabulous, a real BRW substitute, now that Russell has all the good BRW ones in the UK [/QUOTE]
Got a few pics you can snap? I'm quite happy with the stuff I've gotten from MadInter, but inquiring minds do want to know (pics of the stuff I've got here and here, in case you're interested. Bit mixed bag on the fingerboards, but at 5 euros each, ditto bridge blanks big enough for two bridges, not too much to complain about) |
|
| Author: | Colin S [ Wed Dec 14, 2005 5:23 am ] |
| Post subject: | |
Mattia, I grabbed the top two fingerboards a bridge blank and a headplate, they match very well, as does the binding. Colin 
|
|
| Author: | Mattia Valente [ Wed Dec 14, 2005 10:27 am ] |
| Post subject: | |
[QUOTE=Colin S] Mattia, I grabbed the top two fingerboards a bridge blank and a headplate, they match very well, as does the binding. Colin [/QUOTE]
Very nice! Makes me want to go clean up the stuff I have to see what's hiding under the rough-planed, dusty exterior. I think a few of the 15 I have are in that league, but nowhere near all of them. I'm also very pleasantly surprised at LMI's prices on their Madrose. |
|
| Author: | Colin S [ Thu Dec 15, 2005 1:14 am ] |
| Post subject: | |
By the way, some of the best 'Honduran' mahogany now comes from plantation grown resourses in Sri Lanka, just the same as EIR does. It should not be subject to any CITIES restrictions. Being plantaion grown it should also be straight grained. Colin |
|
| Page 1 of 2 | All times are UTC - 5 hours |
| Powered by phpBB® Forum Software © phpBB Group http://www.phpbb.com/ |
|